Chosen Family 101: What Queer Culture Gets Right About Friendship

Hi. Season two. Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to be here. It feels really good. Feels really good. We've learned a lot, and we have so much more to dive into, and so I've been waiting on bated breath to get back into the recording studio. You really have. I really have. I'm like, "Let's fucking go." Michelle's been talking about getting back into the recording studio since second week of launch. Correct. And I was like, "Mm." We have work to do. Noted. But I, I mean, this is, this is, this is it. We love- Yeah … the topics, we love getting in, and, we're gonna be including a bonus episode around what it was like to record season one, to go viral in not the best way. Dun, dun, dun. And really just the fact that season one was, both laying the foundation and creating the container for these conversations around friendship. And now, here in season two, we get to get a little more into the nuance, the nitty-gritty, a little more tea. Uh, what are we talking about today? Today we're talking about queerness, which, we touched on a bit through each of the episodes because it's so core to our identity, but, it is still a foundational one, so you're gonna lead us through that conversation. Oh, yay. She's like, "Who, me?" Me? What? Am I gay? Yeah. I'm really excited for us to dive into this explicitly. Yeah. Because as you said, It is a thread. Queerness has been a big part of my life and my lived experience, so we wanted to talk about it. I wanna start by asking you about your identity and how that came about, and I specifically want to start with you because it wasn't until I really met you that I started to explore my own. So I think understanding your origin story, will kind of help to ground us in this conversation about queerness and friendship. Yeah. I feel really lucky because I have two moms. Shout out to Dolores and Laura. Oot oot. I always talk about my parents, in this way of my mom, my dad, and Mama Laura. My mom and Mama Laura, got together in the early '90s, and they've been together since. The dynamic, cruising duo. And I, and I know there is a gay meaning for the word cruising, but they genuinely do love cruise ships. They are always on the cruise. Yeah, they are. Literally. Um, yeah. So, you know, they've been together for my entire life, and I remember my mom coming out to my brother and I, her interrupting a video game moment at home, and both of us being like, "Okay. The game." "The game we'd like to play." , And then later, me meeting Mama Laura at Tony Roma's, , and also being like, "Okay. Can we go play at the little arcade?" This reminds me of, like, my dad when I told him about Ashley, and he was like, "Okay. There's food. Can we eat now?" Like, men. Yeah, yeah. Just very, let's, let's keep it moving. Yeah. And how old were you then at that time? I was about six. Okay. I was a, I was a tiny. It's so funny because, I've heard the story, but it's like, maybe not the details. Mm-hmm. So I feel like- Mm-hmm … I'm learning here, too. Yeah. And they got married about three years after that, or had a commitment ceremony three years after that. They were legally married in 2015, so- Okay … um, you know, it's been some time, but- But I feel like that's a important part of their story, too, is, being a part of the contingent for gay marriage rights. Yeah. If you were anybody in Marin on a Thursday night- on the corner of Fourth and Heatherton, you would see a gaggle So true … a gaggle of gays with our signs. I often talk a lot about growing up in a politically active household, and, a part of that was, my mom's fighting for gay marriage. They were a part of, the both, national and state organizations that were pushing the legislation and the different bills through, um- Congress? Yeah. I'm just a bill. I'm only a bill. Yeah. When Ash and I had our ceremony, we definitely called out that our reason for being up there and being able to legally marry is largely on the backs of folks who fought for that right, and it felt really important to name, especially with Mama D and Mama Laura in the audience. They really loved that. Well, of course. Yeah. Love a shout-out. Yep. You come by it honest. So yeah. All to say, I remember thinking expansively about my sexuality in, like, fourth grade. Okay. And totally having what I could articulate as, like, a crush. Like, that person- Mm is cute. Yeah. Um, that girl is cute. And yeah, as early as fourth grade, and- In fourth grade, I was thinking expansively about Lisa Frank. So- … we are not the same. I know. I mean, is Lisa Frank hot? No. I mean- I, I- … the dolphins … you know I love a dolphin. Jesus Ch- we've, we've- … we've tabled. Okay, okay, okay, okay. All to say, Queerness has just always been an option. We talk a lot about representation and exposure, and when you can see that it's possible, it makes it easier to see yourself in that. Absolutely. And so There was never, like, a, "Oh, I can't be queer," like, I have two moms. Of course I could be queer. And as I grew up and just, you know, began to explore and understand myself, it made more and more sense for me to be… And at that time I identified as bi. I think that was, like, the word. There wasn't a ton of language around the diaspora- … in the way that there is now, yeah. The alphabet mafia, if you will. The straight, the soup. And so yeah. I wanna say that I, came out probably, like, middle school, early high school, of like, "Yeah, this is who I am, and this is how I identify." And you know, I think in some ways there was just like a, , equal opportunity. Yeah. I mean, and I… It's interesting because I do think that it's true for young folks today, but even when we were young it wasn't really a big drama. It was just something I knew about you from when we met, and yeah. It was easeful. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I absolutely- Between us. Yes I don't know… Yeah. But I equate that to I just didn't have the heaviness- Yeah … yeah, of what it might mean to be out, to be queer- Sure … to be bi. Yeah, I feel very thankful, of my moms and the work that they did in the community. I'm also really thankful of my dad because- Mm … a part of this episode is really about chosen family and, my parents ended up living next to each other, and they knocked the fence down they lived in townhomes, the one, next to my mom came available, and my dad moved in. My dad moved in as his health began to decline more. And it just made sense. My moms were already kind of taking care of him and, supporting him with doctor's appointments and medication reminders, and so it made sense. And at that point, we were already celebrating holidays together and, we ha- it was just the five of us. Like a blended family. Absolutely. Yeah. Co-parenting in a way as well. Mm-hmm. And so, growing up for a large portion of my late teens and 20s, yeah, like that's, I talk about my three parents who were there, and they all played very different roles. But it was really beautiful that my mom and my dad could get to a place to say, "This is actually best for the collective." Mm-hmm. And that Mama Laura was like, "Yeah, move your ex-husband next door to us," and can you imagine? That's actually a great point, because you're naming so many things here, which is a representation of seeing with a front row seat a queer relationship and family dynamics that are not following the, the norm in the United States, and that you're seeing the ways in which it works. I'm sure there are ways in which it was frustrating and it wasn't perfect, but, but largely raised in ways that open you up to different kinds of structures. Yeah, and again, I feel incredibly lucky to have had those experiences because now I do, I'm like, "Well, that's the peak dynamic." Sure. One, three incomes. Hello. Sure. In this economy. Yeah. But also just, like, a helping hand. And I think as a kid, and at that point, I moved home a couple of times in between, but I wasn't living there full time, but it was really nice to be able to be like, "Mm, I'm gonna go next door- "… if it's too much here." Yeah. But, and I also love that allowed for him to have independence but still be cared for in a way that our systems don't always, allow for. Yeah. For you to be cared for and also have that modicum of, independence. And aside from that too, through your moms, because I've met all of your mom's friends, dare I say, at this point. I yeah. Obviously through, like, her having another marriage ceremony, with Mama Laura, but through activism, through the every Thursday night, the Pride parades that you're also seeing what queer and chosen family looks like. Yeah. It's so layered. And this episode I think is so important because queer folks have been creating the third thing forever from the beginning of time because there can be such isolation. There can be- Right … such, you can't be in your bio family or with your bio family that you, , do have to find, other people to hold you, to take care of you, to be there. And I think for our family, our blended family, it, again, it made sense and it was very unconventional and- I look back on it and it, there are times that, it was like maybe uncomfortable to name that and now I'm just like, "This is how it was." What it's also bringing up for me is that we have an amazing group of queer friends here in San Francisco, or some of them have moved up north to the suburbs, but that so many of us, of them, are from the Midwest. And where it is a bit more conservative, where it tends to be a bit more driven by religious values, and, whether it was directly in a person's family or just the community that they live in, there's this either "I don't feel safe here, I don't feel like I can be myself here", or "I'd like to explore what the coast has to offer." And so being in San Francisco, meeting new people, you find that a lot of… I keep saying us because it's our group. I had a different experience, but a lot of us have a shared experience of needing to create a new family where you've decided to, to land and build a life, and my wife is one of those people. Yeah. I think it's important to shout out Kath Weston, and her book, Families We Choose, which really coined this term of chosen family. Family And, it's such a word that we use all of the time, but I think about that, that was in 1991. My parents, they, they told us that they were dating in '93, and that wasn't, chosen family wasn't in the lexicon. It wasn't a word that you heard often. And so I do think we get to create these pathways, that allow us to walk in, in for me, in my parents' footsteps, but walk in the footsteps of people who have come before us. I also think about this as queerness as culture. So oftentimes we talk about queerness as who you date, who you sleep with, who you're attracted to. To me, queerness is so much more expansive than that, so much more deep. And I do think about the ways that I live my life, and I'm, I'm queer in culture, right? The things that I do, the things that I want, the things I believe are inherently queer, and queer and different, queer and non-traditional. And we can talk about, what is traditional versus what is non-traditional, but it is, right? I'm quirky. I already said, "Give me two other partners," because, I need some help. Yeah. I don't wanna do the dishes. I think this is the perfect jumping off point for me to dive into my experience, because this is then where we intersect. But I didn't have a very overt experience around queerness growing up. Um, you know, standard nuclear family. I did have a cousin who, I really looked up to who was in the military, , played basketball. She had shorter hair, and I was always a little like, "Hmm, what's up with her?" But she was older than me, and we definitely weren't at family gatherings talking about anyone's sexuality. There was, I will say, um, 'cause our family gatherings were largely on my dad's side through the Jewish side of my family, and there is this real, acceptance of everyone can kind of be how they wanna be, but still doesn't mean you're talking about it. Mm-hmm. So I'd actually be curious to ask- It was still the '90s. Yeah, exactly, the whole time. So I'd love to ask her about, about her experience there growing up. Having said that, it wasn't until I think I met you that I had a close friend who was somewhere on, the Kinsey scale, which we'll talk about in a second. But that was my first introduction. And then, just teenagers in general going to parties and you are sort of exploring the limits of… And when I say sexuality, I don't just mean kissing and sex. I mean, how I'm dressing and who I'm hanging out with and how I move my body. And so that was that first entrance to that scale. And then we started doing Reach Together, which was a peer youth education program through Marin AIDS Project. And a super quirky group of people introduced to this Kinsey scale, which is that zero to six spectrum for sexual orientation. So this is introduced by Alfred Kinsey, who did, a ton of research around how we all sort of identify. And the way that it was introduced to us at Reach, which may have evolved but bear with me here, is, being in the middle of that scale, 50/50, I'm attracted to men, I'm attracted to women. On one side of the scale might be one or the other. That has changed also even now because we don't always look at sexuality as a binary. Having said that, this understanding that even if you do say, "I, I might only wanna sleep with women," I'm, I'm okay with seeing a naked male or vice versa. Like, I only date men, but I, I like to kiss a girl from time to time or go to a strip club. You know, that there's this, this scale or varied acceptance of our sexual interests. And so I think it was through teaching that, through having a spectrum of folks at Reach that we became friends with and listened to their stories, through doing presentations with HIV positive speakers, hearing their stories as well, and even just what being HIV positive meant in the '70s, '80s, even in '90s, and how the lesbian community showed up to, to support during that time. So this is where I start to get sort of rooted more in understanding of sexuality, in a more varied group of individuals. And also I think it's more where I start to understand that some of my sexuality is a bit shrouded in shame. Like stealing my dad's Playboys that he had in a stack, in his closet or reading my mom's book. I swear it was called the, uh, The Secret Garden- … or My Secret Garden or something, and it was stories about women's sexual fantasies. But that it was a secret, and that it was not something to share or discuss, and that that was mine and, So it probably took me a bit longer. Like you said that you started exploring that in fourth grade. I was much later, much, much later. But I do, I often credit you. I mean, your mom took me to my first Pride parade in San Francisco. There's a picture of us in front of the Civic Center with our little rope. Which then became such a big tradition for us, and we would rope off half of a city block in San Francisco and have a whole, cookout on- Literally Market Street. Yeah. But that I've credited to you for paving the way for what it looks like to not live in shame, and to allow yourself to play and experience different people in different ways. And then when you adopted queer as your way of identifying, I was like, "Yes, that feels like it fits." Because it doesn't feel as much like I'm saying, "I sleep with men and women." It does feel more like cultural identity, the way that I like to share space with people, the way my friendships might… in the way that you go, "Men and women can't be friends," it's like, well, you could think that about either way with me, because it's more about love and relation and inspiration, and there's something more like, to me, electric about queerness That feels right. Well, what you're speaking to is not being in the box, not sitting with or living with the ideas of it is this way or that way. You have to be a man to be a man's friend and a woman to be… Like, queerness just throws all of the rules out the window, and that's the thing that I love about queerness and friendship because it doesn't have to be one thing. It gets to be deep. It gets to be expansive. It gets to evolve, right? And it doesn't have to be so middle school dance. Sure. Sure. I'm just seeing this picture of so often how, sexes are split. And within queerness it's not about the binary, you get to really explore relationally in a way that… in some ways it feels really novel. And in other ways for me it has felt like coming home. Mm. It has felt like, of course. And we've talked about, me identifying as a relationship anarchist and really understanding relationships from this perspective of how am I building with the person across from me? What does that look like? What does our friendship include? What it doesn't? And I think there is something about being able to explore without the box of heteronormativity and without the box of, well, "because of my genitals"- Mm-hmm … "because of my outward presentation, this is the way I have to be in relation with other people". Okay, so this is really interesting because I love that you said you can get rid of the box and it feels like a coming home, but what was coming up for me when you were talking is it can be a little scary not to have a box because evolutionarily… Is that a word? Evolutionally? Evolutionarily. Mm-hmm. Uh, evolutionarily, we put people and things and experiences in boxes to keep ourselves safe and to help us to understand, at least at a glance. And so if what we've seen is man meets woman, they get married, they have two children, one boy and one girl- … then you sort of know what that looks like. And when there isn't the same kind of map- Mm-hmm it can lead to confusion. And even with Ashley and I getting married, we did have to ask ourselves, "Okay, why are we doing this? We don't necessarily need to because it's mandated by our religion. You know, what, what's our, what's our purpose? What's our come from?" But likewise, even in friendship, some of the ways in which we related at a young age did feel a lot like what people might consider a romantic relationship. We see each other or call each other every day. Well, we did work together, which is a bit extreme. But we would spend every night together, and we would stay at each other's houses. And so, I think that that's something beautiful about queerness, but it also can be confusing. And I think what you're speaking to is this not having a roadmap, right? Yeah. Not seeing it, so not knowing it can exist. And that is why we talk about it. Representation, again, is so important. I, can do a whole gymnastics routine because my parents are who they are. I get to be in all of these different spaces, and be so fluid, because they paved the way. And so for, I think for us it's been really important to just name that and be able to talk about it, and create this safety that I think some of the ways that it can feel scary- Mm … because you don't see it. Queerness in this cultural context creates that safety. It creates a container where you can explore, where you can be yourself, where you can try things on. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't feel like there's something wrong with you or you're living outside of the norm. You're just being. Yeah. It's an allowance and- Mm … a freedom, a flexibility. At least that's what it means to me. I do feel like- even just the word in the lexicon, queerness, feels very inclusive, and yet you sort of know what somebody's talking about when they identify in that way. Mm-hmm or what kind of family they belong to. And yeah, I love that you say that because as we talk about the community, it is really important to note that being able to socially locate somebody or a, a group of people by this term queerness, is this level of safety. Representation is so important in this conversation, and we don't take it lightly. Again, I could talk all day about the comfort and the privilege I had having queer moms and being able to, not have a coming out story and just being able to say, "This is my girlfriend Kelly," and, or "My trans boyfriend Beni." There are these ways that I didn't have to explain myself. Yeah. But that is not common. That is not the norm for everybody. 40% of homeless youth identify as LGBTQ+. And when we think about the kind of displacing, the, inability to find those roots, to find that safety, being able to know it's possible can just be enough. Being able to say, "Oh, well I heard Danyelle and Michelle talk about it on The Third Thing, and it can be possible." To find something different, to have a life, to create safety and roots in something other than a bio family. I think about my current chosen family, you, Ashley, Kelly, all of these people in my life who without y'all I wouldn't be able to navigate this world. Sure. And so although I had this experience of a lot of safety in my queerness, I do also look at the fact that my queer community now is the queer community that holds me up. Sure. I think, so many things that you said are important, and I wanna hone in on the 40% of homeless youth identifying as LGBTQ+. I think that a big part of that is having been then rejected by family, and sometimes that comes as a surprise or, it then also removes the safety and security of your living situation, and then can impact the rest of your life, your nervous system, your health and wellness, your finances. So there's this real I feel like there's such a political cultural moment around why are we still talking about this? Mm. Like, just be gay. Who cares? And I feel like there is real impact, not to mention the statistics around, suicide and- Mm-hmm … what happens when you have so much shame and/or have been met with such a response that to be who you naturally are is either unlovable or unwelcome. And when you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, yes, you need food and shelter and water and sleep, but at the very top it's to be known, and it is so core to the human experience and so vital to not just living, but thriving. Mm. And so we are still talking about it. We're here and we're still talking about it, and it only continues to reinforce not only the need for representation in the media so that you can see those examples of this is possible, that someone like me, that can be successful. But importantly friendship, that having other friends in queer culture allows you to share in that experience, to learn from them, like in the ways that I've learned from you and with you, that make it safe to be yourself. And then being known and having that reflected to you through chosen family makes life so much richer. Yeah. I think it's also just important to name what is happening currently in our administration and in the United States, the blatent attack on transness, and how scary it is to know parts of your identity are being threatened. Yes. And so when we talk about, "of course, we're still talking about it", there are, people within our community who can get fired, who can't get housing, who are experiencing high levels of oppression because of their identity, because of who they are. Yeah. That part- and with all of that said, there are so many organizations that are doing really beautiful work to support, the community, and I'm thinking about It Gets Better and the project explicitly talking to queer young folks about how, it is hard and it does get better. And, I think about what that campaign would've looked like if it was my mom and Mama Laura back in the '90s talking with us, talking with younger folks, even today, and what their life has looked like being on the front lines, being grand marshals in the parade. And now, in retirement being able to love themselves in a small town in upstate New York. And so I think there is this deep need to continue to talk about it because that's how we connect, that's how we take care of ourselves, and that's how we know that there is something beyond what parts of the country, parts of the world think of us. Yeah. And because we're talking about representation matters and Danyelle and I are part of your queer chosen family now if you're listening, I'd love to share part of my experience, my family's experience, which is that my wife comes from a Catholic home in the Midwest and was not originally met with support. And I can find compassion in my heart for how scary that must have been for her parents and this deep belief in what is right and wrong, what will send you to heaven or to hell, for a parent who wants the best for their children and can perceive pursuing a queer lifestyle as being one that would include a lot of adversity or pain. And not only wanting your children to thrive and be successful and to be welcomed into spaces, but also, even so far as the damnation of their immortal soul. And if that is your belief, how you're raised, and how you raise your children, wouldn't that just be the worst thing in the world to feel like they're not gonna end up with you in the afterlife? I don't know if I'm over-dramatizing it 'cause I'm not religious, but I can understand- Okay … that, that fear and that sadness and that grief. And we overcame that from the first two years of not really being welcome in that space to creating relationship with her whole family, and then sort of backsliding to not having certain family members at our wedding, not by our choice because they chose not to come. And then coming back up around to them being really involved in our daughter's life, and continuing to nurture and improve our relationship. I'm not gonna lie, it does require compassion and empathy on both sides. And, I just think it's important to highlight and talk about because there is so much divisiveness in our country around "lifestyle choices", who somebody loves, and how you identify. But that- If it's worth it to you to be patient and to have conversations and to continue to live your life unapologetically, what I have found is that often there is peace and acceptance on the other side of that, especially when it's rooted in love. And I know this episode- Mm-hmm … is about friendship, but I just think that as your friend- in a queer marriage with a child who has faced this kind of adversity- just sharing that it is possible and that there are these ups and downs that are truly, truly painful, but also that there is some healing on the other side. Mm. Or there can be. There can be. I don't wanna paint it all with the same brush, but- Yeah … offering that as my story. Well, it, both of our stories. Yeah. We grew up in a more progressive part of the country. Exactly. I grew up with queer moms in the '90s, you know? And, our experience is our experience and our story, but it is a part of the queer history, right? And I think the thing that is so beautiful is we get to share that it's not just one story. Yeah. It does get better, and that looks different for everybody, it hasn't always been so easy in the ways of being queer and because we've had , such beautiful support in each other, in our exploration of queerness as friends, as when we're closer or not, like, we always had that. We always just, we could come home to it. Absolutely. Um, yeah. Will you pull us a card? I will. So this season I will be using The Crow tarot deck. That's right. I'm excited for this. So let's see, what is the Crow Tarot deck going to give for us? Season two, episode one. Hmm. Ah, the Knight of Cups. I love this. I love this. I love this. Um, the Knight of Cups is all about moving forward, being on a journey, but this is a slower journey. This is about being really present. We can think about the Knight of Cups as awaiting a beautiful message or a message of hope, a message to carry us forth. Um, you know from last season, knight energy for me is like 18 to 30. So you're not in this discovery stage anymore. You're more in the stage of putting things into action. Cups is connected to the element water, and it is our emotions. And so the Knight of Cups is really an invitation to sit with your emotions, sit with what comes up, and wait for the messages to come. As I connect this to our episode on queerness, there is this really beautiful sentiment of, one, the emotionality of- Mm-hmm this episode and queerness and our experience, but also this tenderness of what it feels like to await a message of hope, await a message of love, and, await a message of "it gets better". The knight is always on a journey, and as I've said in the past, it's really important to think about this journey, not the destination, but what's happening in between. What are the nuggets you're picking up- Mm … to nourish yourself in this moment? Woo! And we're kicking off season two. We're really excited. 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