How to Stay Friends When Life Pulls You Apart

Content warning. This episode includes a discussion of a suicide attempt starting at six O nine and running through eight forty-two. Please take care of yourself while listening. Skip ahead if you need to. If you or somebody you know is struggling, the nine eight eight suicide and crisis line is available twenty-four seven by call or text. Hi. Hi there. Welcome back. Thank you. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Um, I'm tired in my body, but feeling energized. Well, get ready to relive our entire friendship and the life stages thereof- … because that's what we're talking about today. Wait, but how are you? It's been a long week, so I'm looking forward to the weekend. Cheers to the weekend. But I'm happy to be here, as always. Yeah. And today we have just the tiniest topic of- … when life stages diverge. Mm. Marriage, kids, career, and the friendships that survive them. I think the thesis that both of us have discussed around this idea of life stages is that for any human, as long as you're growing and evolving, you're not gonna be the same person at 25 that you were at age 15, or 35- Mm-hmm for that matter. And sometimes you continue on with your relationships without conversation, but more often than not, it requires a bit of a re-zhuzhing, if you will, a reintegration and a reintroduction sometimes of who you are in this new phase and maybe what that friendship requires. Well, what you're speaking to is- Needing to reintroduce yourself to yourself first. That part. And then you are bringing that fullness, that newness, the parts of you that have died metaphorically, into a space where people have known you. In friendship, in a, in the collective. I talk a lot about with my clients how we don't always do the best job at allowing people to evolve within friendship. Mm. Within relationship. We don't always do the best job allowing people to evolve within relationship. We see somebody as they are, we like that, and then if and when we evolve as we do, it can be really uncomfortable, and this episode is really taking us on this journey of how we've navigated that, and, we want folks, to feel validated in being able to evolve and still be close to friends and still find that space together. Mm-hmm. And I think life stages, I mentioned marriage, kids, career, which are these sort of big, meaty topics, but it's not always that. Sometimes it's slower, softer, quieter, more internal. But it can have a lasting impact. Yeah. I think it's a good time to talk through some of the ins and outs of our friendship. Yeah. The first one that we have touched on is that we met and became instant friends, instantly close, and started nurturing that. And then you left school. Yeah. And it's not like we talked about it or had a ramp up. It was just like, "Oh, she's doing this different thing now." Mm-hmm. And as a young person I didn't need to be involved in that decision that you made for yourself, and it was that first jolt of, "I know what it looks like to have a friendship where we go to the same school." Oof. And so then, okay, I've met this person. We have this connection, and now what? Am I still gonna see her? Do we still have things to talk about? Mm. What will that look like? And going back to that anxious attachment style- will that serve? Mm. Will, will it be something that lasts? Uh, yeah. Listening to you and as we've been recording and this topic has come up, or this moment in time- Yeah … in our relationship has come up, I'm having these realizations of, "Oh, yeah, again, impact." At 15 when I left Redwood, I… Yeah, I was just in, I was in such a bad place that it, it didn't occur to me, that my absence would, have that impact. And, I would think about that time because I had significantly more, downtime, I guess. I was going to school, but they were, block community college classes and so I wasn't in school like the typical 8:00 to 3:00. Mm-hmm. And I feel like I would come and pick you up after school and, we would like hang out or I would like drive you home, or we would go get food. It was very quickly assuaged. Yeah. And I think that's why we've never dwelled on it, and it's not necessary to. Part of that fear or anxiety, anxiousness was calmed through the act of showing up and- Ooh … creating space together. Mm-hmm. But you did mention that you were having such a hard time. Do you feel comfortable sharing a little bit about that? Because as much as it was the physically leaving Redwood, When we talk about life stages, it can also be what's going on in terms of mental health. Yeah, you know, it was a really challenging time for me. When I was 15, I, um, ended up being hospitalized after a suicide attempt. And looking back on it, it makes sense. In the moment, I just didn't have the language for- Feeling so much in my body. Sure. The othering, the feeling like I didn't have the things that I needed based on where we grew up. I absolutely was still learning the tools to care for my mental health. 15 is such a weird age. Very tender. Yeah. And so for me, leaving high school was less of a, like, choice or less of an option and more of a this is what has to happen. I need to be out of that environment. The high school we went to was really challenging for me. It was, it was challenging for me, as somebody who felt very different in that space in so many ways. I've mentioned that I have an older brother who, really excelled at high school. He really did well in that environment, and I, I did not. And so there was also the layer of coming in three years after he had, created a map, a, a, a path for, you know, his younger s- What it looks like … and for his younger sister, and teachers saying, "Oh, you're Earl's sister. I'm so, excited," because of the way he shows up. And, very quickly they figured out that we were different humans. Yeah. And so just the, the layers of, racism, fatphobia, I would say misogyny, I would say being a kid in the '90s. Yeah, just that lack of flexibility that it still exists in our education system- Yeah around how to support students that learn in different ways, that show up in different ways. That's such a good point because, yeah, now, being three years into an adult diagnosis of ADHD, knowing that I've had, I've managed anxiety and depression for all of my life, as I say, also being in that environment, and probably needing to learn very differently. Yeah. And it's wild because I did excel in college. I did do well once I got the hang of it. Yeah. Uh, yeah. The way that this is sort of mapping in is, A, being younger and being a bit more self-absorbed as we continue to talk about not having as broad of a concept of others' experiences. I was someone who really thrived inside of that box. Like, give me a multiple choice test- … I'm gonna be good to go. I can sit, it- I can do the 8:00 to 3:00 and, hop in line. And my way of showing up is well-served, and yet I really struggled with self-expression and creativity, and actually finding my way outside of the box. But all that being said, when it comes to our friendship, it- I don't think I knew for many years that that's what you were experiencing at that time. As you said, there wasn't quite the language or the same kind of community support around mental health. And I'm not saying that it's so easy now. There's maybe more of, an understanding of what that looks like. Mm-hmm. But I think that is where some of the question mark came in, which feels really applicable to so many other life stages, is that, A, you don't always know how to talk about it to give your friend context for what you're going through, especially at a young age. As an adult, it's really hard to talk about postpartum depression until you're well past it and can look back at your hormones, your feelings, your emotions- Mm … your behaviors, and put a name or a diagnosis to it, to then be able to talk about what that means for your relationship or to ask for help. Yeah. Yeah. So that was one of the first life stage divergences. What comes next? Well, I feel like we finished what would be our junior and senior year. Mm-hmm. You moved to San Diego, To start college, I moved to San Francisco UC San Diego. Go Tritons. I guess. I moved to San Francisco, and was, yeah, still going to community college, and it felt very much like a college time for me. That's what I, I look at as my college years. So I wasn't, full-time enrolled in a dorm. That did really feel like, you know, 18, that 18 to 22. Yeah. And what I really appreciate is that you made the effort to come down to San Diego to meet the friends that I was making there, and that was something really new, too. I was very headstrong around going to college, and of course, originally I was like, "NYU, get me as far away as possible." And then you sort of realize the logistical implications of moving across the country. But it was my first time living with other people my age. Feeling that independence from family, and I really immersed myself in it, and I don't think had ever had to really nurture a long-term relationship in any way. Mm-mm. And so you're getting used to this new lifestyle. You're taking classes. You're making new friends. And so I do appreciate that you came down to visit, and- Mm-hmm … all of my college friends knew and know who you are because of that investment. Mm-hmm. But there were hard moments through that. Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking also about moments where we weren't as close during that time. Mm-hmm. I think it was easier maybe, you know, your freshman or sophomore year because we were coming off the heels of spending so much time together. Right. And then, both of us, were building in different ways. I moved to Atlanta For a blip. For a blip. It was, uh- Yes it was a blink, and then I was back. But that wa- you know, I mean, that, that's time differences. That's, just so, so many things that were, converging at that time. I remember Darlene and you were suite mates. Yes. And you called her D-Money, and I often would get phone calls from you. And I would be like, "Oh, Michelle's calling." And then she'd be like, "Hey." "Wrong D." "Wrong D." And then I just stopped answering. Oh, that's so hurtful. And thinking about those moments of, right, we talk about those, like, bids for connection and, like, being excited and then being like, "Ooh, yep. Mm-hmm." Mm-hmm. And just navigating those moments. Also, the frontal cortex not fully- Yes … developed. Not fully developed. We were s- we were not fully developed humans doing very adult things, and really lacking the language- Yes … for me to say like, "Hey, do you think you could maybe change the name in the phone because it hurts my feelings?" And what's underneath that is maybe, "I miss you. I would like some deeper connection or moments where you're calling me with intention," which absolutely would have made sense and is a really mature request- Yeah … and really hard to name. And instead it kind of shows up as jealousy or anger. Mm-hmm. Because your needs aren't being met, but also, yeah, the inability to vocalize it. Mm-hmm. And I think what we're landing on here is there's this sort of origination around some divergence with respect to mental health and how that- Mm-hmm … plays into- Mm-hmm … where we're at in life stages, and then we have some proximity based- Mm-hmm … disconnections. Mm-hmm. A bit of parallel drift- Mm-hmm where we're both investing in college, in our education and kind of building a new life around that. And so as much as there were those moments of jealousy, for me as well, it was also maybe mutually understood that this is a time in our life where it makes sense that we've left the nest and we're investing here. What was also going on behind the scenes is that you were more of a serial monogamist, and I often, whether I was actually in this category or I put myself in this category, felt like a sidekick. Mm. Like the third wheel. I was never really in a long-term relationship. I had, blips here and there. But definitely some… I think it was less jealousy and more around self-esteem. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Around feeling that I wasn't chosen in that way- Mm-hmm … or, or didn't- Mm-hmm … look the way you need to look to be a person that was chosen as a girlfriend- Mm-hmm … or as a partner. And so the ways that your own self image or point of view is playing out in a friendship relationship too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Those mirrors. I'll just give you space to be in your relationship because I don't know what that's like. Mm-hmm. So I'll just stay over here. Mm-hmm. But then again, jumping in when and where I could. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a time. But what I love is that when I moved back home, we ended up working together. We did. For the second time. I forgot to mention- Yes … we did do- Oh, yeah … a peer youth group when we were maybe 16 through 18- Yeah … where we did presentations around Marin County, going to sex education classes, talking about being queer allies, presenting with HIV positive speakers around HIV AIDS, doing Sheeted stories around sexual assault. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's where we, where I started to learn more of this language around the Kinsey scale. Mm. Mm-hmm. Understanding the scale of sexuality, understanding privilege. Mm-hmm. This was- Consent . But it was also where we learned each other's presentation style and that we were really good collaborators. Yeah, yeah, yeah. From the beginning really. I think you invited me in to Reach. That sounds right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You had been doing it. Shout out to Marnie's Project. Marnie's Project. Yeah. Yeah, so you moved back home. Yay. Congratulations. Promised myself I never would, and- I mean … as, as the global financial crisis- Yeah. Hit right as we graduated college- Yeah. Yeah … I had to move home. It was Yeah, com- completely. And yeah, we, yeah, we started working together. We started working together- Boo … at a restaurant. Yeah. Which was delightful. To me, this is like peak, you know, early 20s, messy. So messy. A lot of stamina to do a lot of just ridiculous things, rolling into work after not going to sleep the night before. Yeah. Um, it… this, this to me is like peak, like we're back in it, but we have a little bit more money, a little bit more independence. Mm-hmm. And you had a period of being single too. I wa- yes. Yes. So we- Mm-hmm … got to wile out together. Mm-hmm. And I think that was sort of, if you're looking at that wave, that was definitely like we had the closeness of high school, went away, and then came back together- Mm-hmm … in this phase where, again, also really rooting together and gripping each other because of that shared experience of struggle. Yeah. Yeah. You know? Granted, we were having so much fun too, but I wouldn't say we were thriving. Oh, no. No. No. Because again, you mentioned it, financial crisis. Yes, financial… global financial crisis. And, and like we were already in a lower socioeconomic status than the people in our community. Right. And so just the, domino effect of if there's just less stability across the board, folks with less have less then, you know? Mm-hmm. And so, we, we did, we made it work as we did, as we do. And I do th- I do really feel like we landed, in Marin in this way where we could really be connected together. And then it was my turn to leave without really a second thought, and I was at that time starting to explore my sexuality more as a bit of a late bloomer, and got myself in a bit of drama around the ways in which I was exploring. And we were drinking and, you know, I had gotten kicked out of the house for some reason or another. My mom and I were fighting because I was not only working on the restaurant, at the restaurant, but with her as well in a very close proximity. And I just- Needed to bail. I had had a taste of freedom, and I wasn't prepared to continue down that path of reengaging. And so I had an offer to move to Australia, and I took it. I, without a second thought, bought the ticket, found out I could get a tourist visa for a year, and so I bailed. And again, not a lot of conversation- … other than I am going. And I think, again, before your prefrontal cortex is fully formed, you can make decisions like that without a lot of thought. I didn't have any furniture. I didn't have a partner or any children. It was just, "Let me go." And again, this is where friendship doesn't always get its credit because I'm gonna tell my family if I had a partner, I would negotiate with them in that way. But with friendships, there is this sort of, "Oh, they'll understand"- Mm-hmm and not as much consideration around- Mm … the impact- Yeah … of having been in this place where we're working together and sharing our day-to-day lives together. Mm-hmm. And then all of a sudden, I'm moving- Mm-hmm … to the literal other side of the world. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That is the thing that continues to bubble to the top for me, of how collectively we have these moments in our lifetime, that we are discussing with folks versus telling folks versus negotiating with folks. And when you start to look at who gets the least say- Mm-hmm … it's your friends. Mm-hmm. It's your friends. Not all the time. Yeah. But often. Yeah. Yeah. Especially- Yeah … but then, not to throw too much of a wrench in it, but there are definitely phases of our life where you get maybe too many phone calls- Mm-hmm … talking through a life change or challenge- Mm-hmm … and negotiating through it- Mm-hmm together. And I think that's where we can take those relationships for granted. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. How long were you in Australia? I was in Australia for about a year and a half. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How was it for you? I had a friend of mine who had been there doing a grad program, and he was like, "It pays well here. You can get a serving job." The weather's grand. Come on down. And within a month or so of me moving there, he actually got a job in Melbourne. And so, and at that point I had been hired at a nonprofit, and I was like, "You know what? I'm just gonna stay." So the one person that I knew in another country was moving away the second I landed it felt like. But I wanted to stand on my own two feet a little bit, and I think because I am a person with a lot of friends, I, at that point, had very codependent ties with my family. It was a period of my life where I played with being alone for maybe the first time. And again, when you grow up living in apartments- Mm-hmm I always shared a room. At a certain point I shared a room with my mom. We had exchange students staying with us. My parents slept in the living room/dining room. So it, we were always, like, physically sharing space. Mm-hmm. And so, it was, a time of growing up a little bit, of having my first professional job. And, experiencing what it was like to be with myself. Mm-hmm. And while you were in Australia, I started dating Kelly. That's right. And so we had this period of time before you left where we were, super close. You moved, and I got into what would be a 10-year relationship. And that was your first relationship with a woman. Yes. Yes. Yes. Like, long-term. My, yeah- Yeah … my first long-term girlfriend. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Um, whoa. Like- Big changes … big changes. Very big changes. And, and you know, it wasn't as though I wasn't out or anything. That wasn't surprising for anybody. No. Um, but when you arrived back, life looked very different for us. Mm-hmm. And we'll talk about this more when we get deeper into queerness and friendship , but- this feeling of being replaced in a different way- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … that she could go to the same places I could go as a woman- Mm-hmm and do I still have a place in your life? Mm-hmm. Now that I c- I'm like, "Hey, I'm back." Mm-hmm. And your life has changed. Mm-hmm. What do they say? You can't go home. And it doesn't mean you literally can't go home, it means you can't go home and expect it to look exactly like you did before you left. Mm-hmm. And that was a big smack in the face because when I came home from college, because we had been parallel pathing in a particular way- Mm-hmm … it, it did feel more like I- Yeah … was home. We slid right back into- Correct … our, like, norm. Mm-hmm. What, what one would say our baseline was- Sure … at that time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And coming back from Australia, I was working in youth development in San Francisco. Kelly and I were living together or about to be living together. I had a 9:00 to 5:00 Monday through Friday. Mm-hmm. And a new boo. And, was playing house as, as the, the queers do. Mm-hmm. Very U-Haul-esque. And you know what? I'm thinking about it in this moment, this reflection of I know I consciously wasn't aware of how complex the change was for our relationship. Mm. Well, and your previous partner I had grown up with and been in school with since kindergarten, so there was this deep familiarity there. And with your new partner, you had over the course of a year or more really solidified this strong relationship, but she wasn't very, let's just say, extroverted. Like, uh, I, I didn't get a chance to get to really know her in the same way. And so to see your best friend be so close to someone who is harder for you to get to know. Mm-hmm. And she was older than us too. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So probably a little bit of, like, "Okay, children." You know? Because when we get together we're… Woo. Woo. Fire. You know? Yeah, we're still in our 20s. Yeah. Um- Yeah … and so a definite divergence now in terms of relationship structures- Yeah … and how that shaped our friendship. And I think what we saw during that period of time in our, m- let's call it mid to late 20s- Yes … was a real quiet time in our friendship. Absolutely. We always came back together for birthdays- Mm-hmm … big life moments. Mm-hmm. We still stayed in each other's lives, but I think we deprioritized each other. Yeah. And I was also… I think I was in my girl boss hustle era of- Mm-hmm … I'm moving to San Francisco. Mm-hmm. I think I was working two or three jobs. Mm-hmm. We did end up working together again, though, at another non-profit. Oh, we did. Yeah. Which I will not name. But, um, so it was a tough time. Um- Wasn't, wasn't great. But we still were always great working together. Yeah. Yeah. But then, uh, when I was 26, I met my partner. Yeah. Yeah. And that was my first time dating a woman. Mm-hmm. And I don't know that I had been as explicit around naming my sexuality- Mm-hmm … th- to that point, so it actually did surprise many people. Mm-hmm. Um… It didn't surprise me. It did not surprise you. But we had been, like, hanging out. Like, we had- Yes … had these conversations. Correct. We had talked about it. And as I've mentioned in the past, I have queer moms, so queerness for me was always just, a layer and a thread. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it's on the shelf if you need it. Sure. And so I think when you and Ashley started dating, to this day I wish I had the text message thread that you were texting me the first time that y'all met. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it was very sweet and very cute, and you were very, like, in your feelings- Mm-hmm … but trying to play it cool. Yeah. Well, in my relationships with men leading up to that were just very transactional. Mm-hmm. Very gray area. Not horrible negative, not incredibly positive either. Just kind of a means to an end. Mm-hmm. And I was really more focused on my friendships and my family and work, and romantic relationship never really felt for me until I met Ashley. Mm-hmm. And then it was a really sweet click. Mm-hmm. And I started to really understand the sort of all-consuming nature of falling in love and wanting to spend so much time with that person who, at the time, she lived an hour away. Mm-hmm. And so I think that deepened our divide in some ways. Absolutely. Um, because this was your first time seeing me in a relationship. Yep. Yep. And it's interesting too because That period of time feels like… v- very much a, we don't see each other. Mm-hmm. And, we weren't, like, "Oh, I'll call you while I'm driving to Monterey." Mm-mm. Or, let's figure out a time for us to check in or anything. We were both deeply in our lesbianic Playing house. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's what that time was, for sure. Dare I say you were a bit more vocal about not being thrilled about loving Ashley? I mean… Dare we say I often say the things that are in my head, uh, out loud. Yeah. And what's funny, though, is I really didn't make an effort to help with that. Mm. I just, uh, I was… oh, some avoidance. Uh, some avoidance for me. Yeah. I think I was very… I think there was some trust that we would figure it out, maybe. Oh, yeah. Okay. I love that. But I, I think I also… Not I think. I did not have the emotional capacity at that time- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … to navigate making that work- Mm-hmm … because of where I was at just professionally, too- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm of working multiple jobs and having very- Yeah … little time. No time. It was not a priority to navigate. Yeah. And because you and I had navigated so much even up- Mm-hmm … to that point, I think there was a trust that it would work out. Mm-hmm. But I really had no framework for that. Mm-hmm. I had never seen any of our friends navigate that in- Mm-hmm a way that made sense, or parents or anything. Well, I think you're also speaking to… so at that point, we had been friends for about 10, 11 years. We had had moments of, of separation and coming back together. Sure. L- life had changed significantly. And then we both are in queer relationships, and, like, we were the bestest of friends. Mm-hmm. We were in a relationship. Mm-hmm. We talk about that often, yeah. Yeah, like, if we weren't together, we were on the phone making plans to get together. Correct, correct. We've talked about periods of time where we've worked together, where we, we did have some enmeshment. And, yeah, and codependency, for sure. Yeah. And I think what you're speaking to not having that language was the hurt, the jealousy, the I'm confused- Confused … about, like, why I feel this way. Mm-hmm. There's- And- Love is a pie, right? That we… Very much love is a pie. And I wanna dovetail off of the confusion of, like, I only know our relationship to really look one way when we're in physical proximity. Such a good point. And then maybe it looks a different way when we're physically apart. Mm-hmm. But now we're back in physical proximity, but it doesn't look like it used to. No. And so are we still even friends? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And I think that's something that a number of times in our lives we grappled with. And what's so interesting about friendship and these tools is it can very much be- Something that changes based on your age and emotional maturity- Mm-hmm … but also just sheer capacity- Mm-hmm … to navigate the- Mm-hmm … emotional wreckage of a- … relationship changing. Yeah. Yeah. And then I think we sort of enter in this latest- Yeah phase. That we've been in. Where thank God you and Ashley did navigate becoming close. And what I wanna mention here, and not trivialize it, is the power of a shared interest. Absolutely. Ashley and Danyelle both love football- … and I've been subject to so many football Sundays of at a bar, at our friend's house, in, at- At your house listen, I like a game. One game. I do not need to watch hours upon hours of football. Mm. And you both love football. Mm-hmm. And finally connected over that- Mm … and won each other over. Totally, yeah. And it's become a place where not only you can bond over that shared… Well, you, you tell me what it's like. I think the word for me is I feel lucky. Mm. And, I know the two of you made a point to say that y'all aren't best friends. Mm-hmm. But the, what I said at your wedding was, "My best friend married her best friend, and I got a new best friend." Mm. A bonus. I got a bonus best friend. And it is really interesting when I talk about the two of you and I'm like, "Oh yeah, like, my bestie, my bestie," and I'm like, "Well, Ashley's my bestie, too." We do have a deep relationship. We travel once a year together. We do have that depth as well. I think of it as, as I feel lucky you and I are in this stage, and I get to experience this additional love. Mm-hmm. This additional relationship, because of the way that Ashley and I connect. Yeah. And to put a finer point on the sports piece, I think this is often gendered around men who- won't say, "Hey buddy, come, do you wanna just hang out today?" Yeah. "And just sit and chat?" Like, that's not as much a part of the lexicon. But that sitting and watching a game together offers downtime, and the commercials are on and now we're actually checking in with each other. Yeah. And I think it offered you both a safe way to ease into connection and getting to know each other. Yes. And without me, thank God. Yeah. Because I am so glad. And of course, there are moments where I joined in on the trip to London because as if you're going abroad without me. However, I do love that you guys visit a new stadium every year and get to build on your friendship together because it only creates more richness for me, and also a load off so that I don't have to be everything for my partner. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So thank you for that. But I wanna touch on one moment that I think was a big shift for us, where we did finally have a conversation about where we were at in our friendship. And you and I often talk about how we each remember different things so vividly- … and you'll be like, "God, I don't remember that." So for me, I remember you coming over to work on a grad school application, and we had been in a bit of a sticky point where we hadn't been connecting as much. Things were really busy. I was very in my relationship with Ashley, and I knew we weren't on 100% solid footing, but, you had to get this application in. So you came over, we sat on the couch for three or four hours, and it was such a moment for our friendship to shine because I got to uplift you, and you had been talking about yourself and this application and the essay. And because of our longevity and our- Mm-hmm … integration, I could remind you of all of the amazing work that you've done, and talk about you in this application in a way that nobody else maybe could. Mm-hmm. Not even you. Yeah. So it was a nice moment before we then kind of got into it. Mm-hmm. Before you left, where you were like, "I feel…" I, I don't know what words you used, but the sentiment was, "I feel abandoned by you." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Like, that we don't talk. Mm-hmm. And, and at that point I don't know that we had the non-violent communication language. Absolutely not. And so it was like- Yeah … I feel abandoned, I feel- Yeah … neglected. Yeah. You know, et cetera. And- You, you, you. It… Yeah. I don't know even if it was I feel. Yeah, it was like, "You are not connecting with me." Yeah. And I mustered this calmness around, like- this is what I have to give right now. Mm-hmm. And the way that I showed up today is to me the embodiment of how deeply I care for you and will always be here for you, and I actually can't have a weekly phone call. Mm-hmm. Like, that's not the place that I am at in my, in my career, in my relationship. Mm-hmm. And but I still love you. Yeah. And to your credit, you gave me that grace to be in this busy place, and I actually don't know what your process looked like on the other side. But I feel like ever since we had that conversation, there's been so much more breathing room, and we have come back together around weekly, daily phone calls sometimes. Um, but that I felt like you really heard me, that that love isn't going anywhere. Mm. Even when I'm not in a place to show up with frequency. There's… Yeah, so what I will say is I love this so much because we're hitting on all of the things we've talked about- Yeah … leading up to this episode. Yeah. Right? Although we didn't have the frameworks that we have now, yeah, what I was asking you was for more? That was my request. Mm-hmm. And you got to meet me where you were. And, again, I think that is so important about friendship, about platonic love- Mm-hmm … is being able to say, "Here's my request," and then have the conversation around what works collectively, this idea of co-creation. Mm-hmm. And what you're also speaking to is secure attachment. You're really speaking to being in a point in our relationship where we are not, on top of each other. We're not doing things daily. We are separately building a life. Mm-hmm. I was getting ready to move to LA for grad program. I was still in this relationship with Kelly that was, like, slowly winding down- Yeah and changing in a lot of ways. My dad had just passed away. There was this swirling- Right … that was really happening in my life. And you're, like, grasping for what's familiar, what's comforting, what do I know. Yeah. The- When the things that you love most are leaving. Yeah, yeah. And, that day, the, the conversation, I remember, again, not having the language, feeling so hurt- Mm … that you didn't just say, "Okay. We'll-" uh, I'll call you. You know, we'll, we'll put this on the calendar," you setting that boundary, you saying this is what your capacity is, was so… It was deeply hurtful for me. Mm. And that's where some of that, avoidance comes in- Sure of like, "Okay, well she doesn't have time for me," which, was not what she said. But what my brain told me. And I moved to LA. Mm-hmm. And was, there for, just under two years, and had my grad program. And, same thing. During that time we went through waves of you coming down, me being home, because it was just a hour flight. But, but what is really coming up for me in this moment is, like, that to me is when we solidified secure attachment. Mm. And, and I think maybe for the first time I felt that in my body. Yeah. I love that. I mean, kudos us. High five. Oh. Love you. And then Ashley and I did the lesbians cosplaying heteronormativity, and got married, and had a baby, and those were even more life stages. And, as we near the end of the episode here, I think you're witnessing the way that Danyelle and I, and Ashley, as a trio of now of friends- … have started building community together. And it is part and parcel of the work that we've put in and continue to, but it's also in large part the way that you, Danyelle, view community and view showing up. You have continuously shown up as a part of the journey, not as an outsider. And Yes, we've invited you in, but you also don't- let it go too long without saying, "I actually want to spend time with Billie." It's not about like, "Do you need a sitter? Do you need help?" It's like, "I wanna have my own relationship with your- Mm-hmm with your kiddo." Mm-hmm. And it's been so comforting and such a relief because it's also allowed for Ashley and I to continue to cultivate our relationship as partners so that we can be good parents. Mm. And because that trust exists where we look at you almost as a third parent- Mm-hmm … or a person who can stand in in that way where there's trust, there's comfort, and we don't have to worry about what's happening when we step away. But it's less about, a babysitter, more about knowing that you're building that relationship as a part of our family. And so I think as much as we talked about transitions being something that often separates us, this one feels like one. Well, I suppose it does need to be named that you were not thrilled about us getting pregnant just a year after we got married. You were like, "Why are you rushing into this? Enjoy your marriage." And I was like, "Girl, I am 35. The clock's ticking. Geriatric." So rude. Yes, but that was a blip. Yes. And I think more than anything, the transition of having a child has continued to bring us closer. Yeah. And I will say, I think, and maybe, you know, I'm, again, reflecting in the moment, maybe even more reason why I was like, "I'm gonna show the fuck up." Sure. Because- I will not be left behind. Well, that, but, like, also- Yeah … I didn't want the two of you to not be able to continue to enjoy the love that you had been building. Sure. And, you know, that's just me inserting myself into your relationship. Welcome. Um, and like, l- there's not a world in my, you know, my head, in my brain, in this realm and beyond that your kid didn't see me as a bonus parent. Yes. A bonus, or, auntie with a capital A. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's just not a world in which that, that would happen. And I think to your point, it is the way that I see community. It's specifically the way that I see raising children. Yeah. And I, I feel so lucky. I'm the third person on the school call list. Every time. That's, I mean… It's a big deal. It is a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal for me. It's, it's a really big deal, and I don't take it lightly. And a- adore, adore her so, so, so much. As we near the end of, of this, what I think is really important to name is it's possible. Mm. It is possible, period. Return, return, new paragraph. And it's about being deliberate in your communication, in your, asking, in your, your needs, you know? It doesn't happen through, thinking, "I really wanna spend time with you," but not saying it. Sure. Or, "This, this feels and looks different for me. How do we navigate it?" And what we've told you today is ways that, you know, we were re- trying to read each other's mind or expecting- Yes … each other to read each other's mind, and not communicating. And then the ways when we did communicate very explicitly- Yes … how life stage changes can be, again, a part of that, thread woven through the tapestry, and not a stop, not a, "That's the end. We're hemming this and we're moving on." Yeah. And I think so many ways to navigate those moments of drifting apart, and I think it's deciding both individually and collectively, is drift okay? Are there periods of our life where we might have some distance? Mm-hmm. I know most of us have said we get back together and it feels like no time has passed. Mm-hmm. And I think that's some of the beauty of friendship- Mm-hmm … when you allow for space and for life changes- Mm-hmm … to impact your life in the ways that they will. And looking at our stories and the way that, yes, you left high school, but you continued to show up. And yes, you were in a relationship, but I continued to insert myself as the third wheel. And yes, I got in a relationship, and you generated a relationship with Ashley. So it's as much through action- Mm-hmm … as it was through difficult conversation that we- Mm … continued to find our way back. And we also allowed ourselves to have periods where we were investing in either a relationship or in ourselves- Mm-hmm and kind of knowing, maybe knowing inside? Mm-hmm. That it was a, a time for a break. Yeah. Yeah. What bubbled to the surface for you? Yeah. I mean, reliving our story feels like the reliving of our lives- Mm-hmm … in so many ways. Mm-hmm. And just the understanding, there's so much gratitude for the grip we had on each other through struggle, and so much compassion for the young people who didn't understand when that life vest wasn't there- Mm-hmm anymore for periods. There's so little anger or resentment or pain left- Mm-hmm … from any of this. It's all seeing how it was necessary to get us to where we were. Totally. Yeah. So it's a, a real journey. Yeah. And why I, I, we… This is a relationship. Yeah. The, again, my longest non-familial relationship. Mm-hmm. It takes work. It's been close, it's been not, you know? Yeah, yeah. For me, I'm having this really beautiful connection with our inner children. Mm. The younger versions of ourselves, the 15-year-old selves, the 25-year-old selves, the 35-year-old selves, and then, looking ahead to 45 and, and more, of like, wow, there's a lot of celebration. There's a lot of, like, it, it's not a, the finish line, but, finishing these life stages, the 10 years in between, and being like, "Okay, yeah, like, we can start a new book together." Yeah. You know? This book has ended. 15 to 25 has ended. 25 to 35 has ended, and now we're in this 35 to 45, and we have these volumes. And I just, I'm sitting with our, both our future selves and our, our inner children, and just being like, "Yeah." We did that. We did that. We did that. Put a couple of those back on the shelf, though- Yes … because phew. Some of those chapters were rough. Noonan's needed to close. Shout out to Noonan's. Will you pull a card for us? I will. Ooh. Ooh, I love this. Mm. Mm. All right, we're getting two. So we've got the Knight of Swords and the Fool, bottom of the deck. The Knight of Swords is this really beautiful card about being on a journey, and I love this as we're talking about our friendship and life stages and 10-year blocks of these volumes. To me, knight energy is very much 18 to 30 energy. Mm. And as I think about our relationship, there is something about it being in that kind of like- Yeah … stage of life. Not obviously in age itself, but that ripening of like- Mm-hmm … okay, we- we're figuring it out. We're in a flow and, you know, we're not in elementary school falling down and not knowing- Right. Right, right, right, right … what to do. The thing that's really important about the Knight of Swords is not getting so caught up on the destination that you forget about the journey. Mm-hmm. And when I think about life stages diverging, as a society, we do often focus on what is at the end. Right. What is at the top of the mountain. Right. And what the Knight of Swords is inviting is on that journey, be open to slowing down, be open to rest stops. The journey is just as important as the destination, and the destination often changes. Use your head, be clear-minded, allow your life experience and, your wisdom to guide you. Charge in with intention. Mm. And then I had to pull the bottom of the deck because it is another major card. That's wild. And we've got the Fool. And to me this is just, really beautiful I think for our story. I feel like this is a little bit of a pull for us. Mm-hmm. But also for the collective around take the leap. Know that you can step off the cliff and allow yourself to be in a little bit of spontaneity, be in a little bit of unknowing what's at the bottom, but trusting that you will be caught. And to me, what this is deeply connecting to is like trust that when there's, those moments of divergence, when there are those moments of maybe feeling less close, that you will come back together. You will come back together because for us, I do feel like this is, this is always the beginning of our journey? We might not always be at the same place, but we always come back there. And so to me, the Fool very much represents this idea of trust. Mm-hmm. So I think the invitation for you listening is to take inventory of your friendships and what phase are they in? Is there a moment to check in, to reconnect, or are you in a period of grace for a life transition that you might be going through and, knowing that you'll come back together on the other side? Yeah. Let yourself have that breathing room. Let your beloveds have that breathing room, and trust. See you next week. Bye. If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend. Find us on Instagram @ The Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www.thethirdthingpod.com. Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it. 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