Talking About Money With Your Friends Is an Act of Intimacy

I have the Cardi B song stuck in my head. Which one? Money. Everything in the world, money. Mine is money, money, money. Do you want some money? It's a rich man's world, or whatever. I do not know that song. I think that you do. I mean, I probably do, you know? That's, that is the story of my life. Are you ready to make people uncomfortable today? I mean, it is one of your superpowers. I love it. Let's fucking go. Money and friendship. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, the topic of money off top is just so intense. Can be. So intense. I think many of us absolutely carry, a lot of money wounds. Yeah. A lot of discomfort around money, and I, I don't think that matters if you've grown up with lots, and lots, and lots of money or not. Yes. And everything in between. Money is layered and complex. What was your first sort of experience of money energy? Stress. Absolutely stress. It felt like something that caused a lot of tension in my household growing up, and I remember… some of my, earliest memories around money was not fully knowing, but feeling like there wasn't enough. Scarcity. Feeling like we couldn't do the things that maybe I wanted to do or my parents wanted to do- Mm-hmm … because there was a limited amount. There was a finite amount. Yeah. What about you? Same. Uh, so I won't repeat it, because very much the same. And the addition I'll give is- this real othering around people who have money, and that they don't care as much about money. Mm-hmm. They don't spend time with their kids. They hire nannies. Mm. Oh, isn't it just so nice for you? There's this real like, "Oh, if you have money, you're not a good person." Mm. Like, a real connection to that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And a very, like, us versus them around wealth. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel that. I definitely see that as, especially somebody who's done a lot of community work- Mm … this idea that, you can't be so far away from the communities you serve, and it has to hurt- Yes for it to be real or for, or meaningful. Yeah. Mm-hmm. What was your first representation or understanding of what success means? Ooh, that's a good one. Having, having money. Yeah. Right? Like- Yeah … uh, you know, being able to navigate the world without scarcity. In my family, when I was very young, my dad actually worked in Chicago, and he didn't wanna move the family there because he was like, "The winters are too cold, and the summers are too hot. We're not doing that." And so he would travel most of the month, and then come home and spend time with us. But my experience as a child was when I see my dad it's fun, otherwise I'm hanging with mom. We're swimming. We live in a nice condo. And so success to me was a bit of distance from the family experience. It was traveling a lot. And when he then stopped doing that traveling and wanted to be an entrepreneur and start his own business, that's when we lost our home. Mm-hmm. And my mom had to go back to work, and to her, that was complete and utter failure. Mm-hmm. It was the loss of her desire to stay at home and raise kids, and it threw our family into chaos. Mm. And so I had some real connections around "starting your own thing, and being an entrepreneur is very dangerous." Mm-hmm. "And that you run the risk of ruining your family to pursue something." Yeah. That's so real. And very different for me. My mom has always been kind of this, like, entrepreneur- Absolutely type. I don't know, like, what it was called then. I just, like, call her, she hustled. Like- A hustler … sh- yeah, 1,000%, scrappy, make it work, And, and she did. And she did. I will say, when we did need the money, the money appeared. And I think that's like a little bit of her magic in ways. But she always really had her own business. She didn't really, work for other people often. Wow. And in that she was really able to, find these ways of abundance, of money flow that absolutely kept us afloat. And my dad worked for the federal government, and so, you know, there was also that stability. He wasn't high up. Sure. But there was that stability of healthcare and a paycheck every two weeks and all of those things. But yeah, I'm, I'm hearing you say , "oh, starting your own thing- Yeah … destruction, chaos." Which is not what you saw. I love that we're starting this conversation here because it's a perfect example of how two people who largely connected over feeling othered in Marin County, and who felt sort of , an experience of or touches of poverty, not only by living in a wealthy area, but also by way of parents separating and- Yes what that can do to your lifestyle. But that we're still coming to the table with different ideas around money, around success- Mm-hmm … around scarcity- Mm-hmm … and that is what you often bring into a relationship. Absolutely. And I think there is also this idea that money is a taboo topic in friendship- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm in platonic love. , It's a taboo topic, period. Yes, yes. And if we're not building, if we're not, setting the foundation for a lifetime together, why would I talk to you about anything happening with me financially? Oh, girl. I asked Ashley's cousin how much she makes because she was talking about her success in real estate and how much it's changed her life. And so I was like, "How much are you pulling in a year?" And I asked her in front of her mother, and the looks that I got at that table were unreal. Mm-hmm. But to me- Mm-hmm … not talking about money is a function of the patriarchy. Absolutely. It protects those who are earning and harms those who are not. Yeah. Because that transparency is what helps you know what's possible. For someone who maybe, like, looks like you or has had a similar experience as you- Yes … and also helps to place you on this spectrum of, yeah, possibility in terms of finance. Yep. Absolutely. I had a friend in my 20s, and I had been negotiating a salary, and we did not work in the same industry, but I was just curious. We're close in age, we have the same education level. Right. You know, what, what do you make? And it was as though I asked for the password to, the family vault. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was an explicit, "I don't talk about money. That is not what I share. People become jealous. People want more from me- Right … if I talk about that." Yeah. And I was like, "Oh." Yeah. "Okay. Yes. Heard." And so yeah, to your point, we are really taught, "Don't talk about money. That is bad. That is taboo." Sure, sure. Then adding the layers of, well, why would you share that with, somebody you're not intentionally building with? And I think for those of us who also have spent any period of time in the nonprofit sector, there's this idea of working because you care about a cause, and working extra time because you see how much of a need there is, and you have this desire to give and make a difference and make an impact. And one of the things that I learned through coaching early on, actually, when I was working at a nonprofit that offered life coaching to underserved populations, because normally coaching is for an upper level CEO who wants to level up their company, and the idea behind this nonprofit was, what if we bring it to young folks who, "I want to be an athlete," or a lawyer, or a musician, and we can, through coaching, actually break down the steps to make that happen so that it's not just a pipe dream. Mm-hmm. And so part of being the guinea pig working at that nonprofit was for me to answer some questions about how I view relationships and money, and I was like, "Yeah, don't care at all. Money's not for me. It's for other people." Yes. "Home ownership is not for me. It's for other people, and all that I care about is doing good and being in alignment." And they were like, "No, no." Because money is the way that our society- Mm-hmm … shows value, I think I've also grown to understand that it can be a blessing- Mm-hmm … if you let it be, and it can be part of the way that the universe blesses you and allows for ease. Yes, yes. But that language and that understanding was- not available to me at all, again, because of what I was bringing from my past experiences and from feeling like, wealth was for others and not for me, and therefore I was not welcoming- Mm-hmm wealth. I wasn't asking for it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was taking the bare minimum because it was seen as, unimportant. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Unimportant and almost, like, an evil. Evil. I was gonna say that, yes. You know? Those with money, are the reasons why there's inequality. Those with- Okay, but not no. I mean, yeah. Correct. Um- Sorry, continue. Uh, well, no, no sorries. I mean, I think- Yeah … what you're speaking to is the validity of that idea that we both, are coming with. And as a child growing up in scarcity, or what was felt as scarcity, and then the external being so much abundance everywhere. Yeah. It's it's really confusing. And- Totally … I will say, it does kinda feel like that when, you're driving up the hill in Tiburon to somebody's house and you're like, the maid's quarters are bigger than my entire- My entire apartment … apartment. Yes … could fit in your kitchen. Yeah. You know? Like- Yes … like- Well, and this is an interesting part, too, that I think we both struggle with maybe even individually or have struggled with over time is we like nice things. Yeah. We like nice food and nice vacations- Mm-hmm … and quality clothing because- Mm-hmm … we've seen what that looks like, and we've- Mm-hmm experienced that sometimes by proxy. Mm-hmm. And then what does that look like at different levels of income? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. We're getting into it. Yeah. We're here. We've arrived. We've arrived. We've arrived. I think we've arrived at this point. Yeah. And so what does that look like in friendship? And for us, it's palpable because so much of our early friendship into young adulthood was sort of rooted in the sameness. Mm-hmm. There were notable differences, like you sort of always had a car. Mm-hmm. Whereas maybe I didn't. Mm-hmm. And so there were a little, but- Mm-hmm … what w- it was sort of like what was yours was mine. Yeah. And so there was this collective sharing- Absolutely. Yeah … of what we had. Yes. Totally. And we weren't being faced with many choices that were going to challenge our financial stability. No. Yeah. At all. Like you got money for the movies. You got monies to get into the club. We pooled resources. Absolutely, yes. Yeah. I'm thinking about this and I'm like, "Yes, we did." We did. We did. We did. We really, used all that we had in a way to get us both where we needed to go. Correct, because we weren't going without the other. Yeah. And so, and then we both did some tenure in the nonprofit space. Mm-hmm. And you stayed longer than I did. Mm-hmm. Then as you get older and you are starting to be faced with, "Oh, I'd like to travel. I'd like to travel for my birthday. I'd like to go to a nice dinner." And at times in our lives in both directions- Mm-hmm … our incomes have flip-flopped. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. What does that bring up for you? I mean, you know, one of the things that we've talked about through this, this season is the work that we've done. Mm-hmm. And so in this moment, what it brings up immediately is gratitude for these periods of time when we did have differences, and maybe we didn't have the language, but now we do. Right. I think it brings up some discomfort in my body for the times where I had to be like, "Can I pay you on Friday?" Or, "I can't go." Sure. And even, I mean, it took me, I would say, well into my 30s to just name, to say out loud, "I can't afford that." Right. It was, "Oh, I don't know, like, I'm gonna be busy," or, whatever, right? Right. You, you, you make the excuse when in actuality it's, "I can't, I can't afford that." Right. And what's unfortunate is that there's often this shame around- Mm-hmm … not being able to meet folks where they are. And I think one of the things that really changed me was actually through some of our conversations around, race and reparations too- Mm and about being a person of privilege, and when you step into that, how can you give back not just through philanthropy and community, but also literally within your relationships. Mm-hmm. And I know that we've had many a conversation around self-worth, and I have participated and been on the side of listening from this place of deep knowing, because I've been there and we've been there together. Mm-hmm. But a reorganization of what makes a person of value. Completely. And I know that- my partner and I have flip-flopped a number of times as well. When she first moved to San Francisco, I was the one with the steady income and paying rent, and then I had to take a period of a break where I was in grad school, and she took over and, that's kind of how partnership works. And I kind of feel like that's how friendship works sometimes as well. Mm-hmm. But in a recent relationship of yours, I have been in a place to be able to remind you of how much you bring. Mm-hmm. You're an amazing cook. You're a witch. You offer spiritual support. You offer intimacy, and why is that not the same, if not more value than I can pay the rent? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Thank you, capitalism. Mm-hmm. You know? Runs deep. ' Yeah. And, thank you. I appreciate you saying those things, and even hearing them in this moment, us having these conversations a lot, I immediately am like, and it would be nice- Yeah … if there was the financial, pot of gold to continue to reach into to show up in these ways. And that is absolutely because of the society we live in. Right. There, it, it's- A response to. A response to, well, if and when you have this pot of gold, life is easier, there's things that you can do, access, doors open. And when you don't, that, it can feel more restrictive. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. What our- growth and conversation has offered us recently. I mean, we are in live real conversations around money too because of where we're both at. But more recently I worked for a publicly traded company, a more corporate environment. I'm a senior director of strategy. I'm in a place where I can pay my loans, I can pay my bills, and I do have this ease in my life. And so there have been periods where you've said, "I'm not sure that I can make it to Mexico for the 40th birthday." And which is very real for anyone, let alone someone who is, working through clinical hours, getting paid poverty rates, you know? And I loved being in a place in my life where I could say, "I would love for you to come." Mm-hmm. That's what matters to me. Mm-hmm. Let me cover this. Mm-hmm. And to revisit that conversation of , if I invite you to dinner, I am happy to cover it. Mm-hmm. And I, I understand and I'm kind of curious, I'm sure there's gratitude in those moments, but like what else comes up around that? Yeah. You know, It's interesting because we've been here in this moment for, I would say about six years. Mm-hmm. In terms of the, imbalance- Sure … in finances. Pre-lockdowns I was, making six figures. I was doing the things. Right. And, decided to take a step back from that type of work to heal my body. And I will never go back. I hear you. Uh, right. And it has felt different at different times. There's not a moment when I sit down at a table knowing where we live, knowing, you're not exiting the house you're not stepping one foot out the door and not spending $100. Impossible. Literally impossible. And that is a function of the Bay Area, a function of California. There is this moment where I sit down and I'm like- Mm-hmm … "Oh." And you know, baby Danyelle will peek her head out and, I think some of that is less shame. There's shame there, but a lot of it is, this failure. Mm. There's a lot of, I still can't take care of myself? Mm. I still can't contribute in these ways. And like a vulnerability there as well. Mm-hmm. I think it's important to state, Michelle, briefly mentioned it, so I am, more than halfway through getting, my clinical hours to become a licensed, clinical social worker. So I'm licensed now, but I work under supervision. And the way that that works is you get paid significantly less than what you would get paid once you're licensed. And licensure hours can take anywhere from two to seven years. And so graduating with a second master's with close to 200K in debt, my first year out of my second master's, I made $36,000. Mm-hmm. And that is the pathway. And I think it's important to name that that's why we don't have a wealth of diversity in our therapists and clinical social workers. Absolutely. It takes this level of privilege. The fortitude that it takes to live in poverty or be supported by other means- Yeah … or hustle to this crazy degree- Mm-hmm … which is such the antithesis of the work that you're doing- Mm-hmm … which is holding really meaningful space for people. Yeah. And I would say, it's access and privilege. Mm. A lot of folks who are doing this in a way that is sustainable are in, married- Right … with an additional income. Being in the Bay Area, being so close to Silicon Valley, partners in tech, partners in finance. Or they have moved through this career trajectory at a much younger age. Ugh, that part. Yeah, where you have 17 roommates and/or a parent that's still supporting you. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. Um, uh, yes. And, you know, I understand that this is temporary for me. Um, and for some folks in friendships it's not, right? Right. That's a real thing of knowing this is the cap, this is the top, and maybe I won't ever be able to make that trip to Mexico. Maybe I won't ever be able to do the spa day with you. I think it's important to name that as well. Yeah. And understanding- To what degree is that important in your friendship? Mm. And I'm not saying there's one right or wrong answer there. We're fortunate in that it can just be us sitting at a kitchen table or in the car and having good conversation that will keep us going for years. And I've enjoyed the way that we've been able to share life together, which for me often includes traveling. Mm-hmm. And so to the extent that I've been able, I appreciate being able to share in that with you, which is in some ways selfish of me, but hopefully also in a way that ends up being or feeling fair. And the pendulum is swinging too, because I experienced a layoff recently. Mm-hmm. And so now I have to rethink the ways that I spend and invest. Mm-hmm. And it probably means we get to have another conversation as we- Mm-hmm … spend more time together and- Mm-hmm … invest in this work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, is the beauty of 26 years of friendship. I think the beauty of, or what felt like the beauty of being on the same page in our younger years, for me, was that it didn't require much conversation. Mm-hmm. We viscerally understood where each other was at, and so, it didn't need a tough conversation. Mm-hmm. And we weren't planning big trips and going- Mm-hmm … out to crazy dinners. And we were pooling resources. And so we were almost fortunate in that way that it wasn't something that came between us. Yeah. And I think later in our- 30s when money was maybe more equal or, or- Mm-hmm … our salaries, income were more equal, I think those were periods of times where we were less close. Mm-hmm. And so there were times where, yeah, we could do, we could catch up over a dinner and, just split the bill no problem. But still, again, not necessarily having to have those conversations because we weren't in each other's day-to-day. Yeah. There was a lot of bypassing. Mm-hmm. And even by way of some of the relationships we have in our lives that we've gotten free concert tickets or- tickets to games. And so we've gotten to do a lot of fun things without having to have the difficult conversation. Mm-hmm. Or we've navigated it by way of, it's a celebration in the park. Mm-hmm. It's doing it within our means- Mm-hmm … and allowing for different levels and layers of showing up and of participation. Yeah. Yeah. Conversely, when there is that difference, I do understand that it can create this layer of like one person has it figured out and the other doesn't. Mm-hmm. Or that it's this feeling of charity. And I have to sort of double down on this reframe- Mm … around, A, the longevity of the relationship- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and how we've each showed up for each other in different ways over the years. And also while I am encouraging everyone to value money and to look at it and turn it over and- … and understand how you can grow your own wealth and standing, I also don't think that it's more important than, per se, friendship, than showing up- Mm-hmm when you're needed and, all of the different ways that you and we contribute to this friendship and to this relationship. And so if I am feeling abundant in this way- Mm-hmm … and we can go out to a nice dinner together, that can always be negotiated. But to me, it's important to continue to reinforce that's not the most important thing. Yeah. And one of the things I feel like we've done really well is bring in these other layers of, abundance. Mm. Like very Pentacles energy, abundance of life. It's not just the money you have in your bank account, but it is the other things that you contribute. And it has been incredibly supportive for me in this relationship hearing those things. Growing up where we did, seeing the things around us, having so much, just weight on money, having money, you know? Right. Access to money. Being able to name how impactful it is to, like, watch your kid. How impactful it is to pick up your takeout. Yeah. And it, it does feel maybe trivial or silly- Sure or again, not equal because it's not a one-to-one, I'm paying- Exchange … $100, you're paying $100. Correct. And it's, it's at equal. But it does get into this conversation around equity and being able to name maybe in society it's not a one-to-one, but in this relationship it's a one-to-one. And that it's not about being behind or not having your stuff together, it's more about what do you have? Yes. And always finding opportunity within relationship to be of service, however that looks, think the scorecard is where you get into trouble- Mm-hmm … when you haven't had the conversation and you're keeping track of the money that was spent or how much they spent on you and now you feel stressed or like you owe them something, and that can trigger that avoidance or deep shame. Mm-hmm. And that's really something that ultimately impacts the friendship when what we're offering is, even though this is, as we said at the top, this taboo topic, that taking the time to ask your friend, "What's your experience with money?" Mm-hmm. "How do you feel about it now? What are your priorities in friendship?" Mm-hmm. Because financially you may not be in a place to travel, but you really wish you could. That's, that's information to have- Mm-hmm … because then maybe we plan for something down the road- Mm-hmm … and we both talk about what that looks like to be in a place where we both get to contribute. Mm-hmm. And so opening the doors to that conversation with the people in your lives and it's, creating safety- Mm-hmm to ask each other where you're at and what you want from spending time together. And this topic couldn't be more timely because the cost of gas is changing. Oh my goodness. The tolls. Every piece of our lives, is becoming harder. Mm-hmm. And I've been seeing a lot of content right now about artists canceling their tours because- Mm-hmm the cost of a ticket is as much as their mortgage- Mm-hmm … in some, in some cases. Mm-hmm. And so- Mm-hmm … given the context of where we're at, how do we navigate sharing space with our friends financially? Yeah. I think you're really hitting on a point around evolution on the external, and being able to understand that sometimes the impacts to the relationship aren't within the relationship. Sometimes it is the external that is putting pressure or influencing- Correct … and how you have to have those conversations as well. That it's not just always, in this, in this case, "Well, you are making more money and I am making less money," and how that impacts. But also, yeah, gas here is about 5.50 to 6.20. It's… Yeah. Yes, it is. You know? And, like driving the seven miles across the city back and forth or meeting somewhere else, like taking those things into consideration- Right … as a part of the plan making, as a part of the care. Yeah. And what this really requires is a willingness to have the conversation. Mm-hmm. Because as we discuss in non-violent communication or compassionate communication, without the conversation, assumptions can be made. Mm-hmm. "Oh, she hasn't RSVP'd to my birthday- Mm-hmm … and therefore she doesn't care about me." Mm-hmm. When really we haven't had that finance conversation because maybe there's shame around it or, or a hope that something will change before- it's time to go. Um- Mm … and so the invitation to you listening is, have you talked to your friends about money? Is there a conversation that might need to be had? And also, is money impacting your relationship in a negative way? Mm-hmm. What are the ways that you're creating space for this very important topic that can ruin friendship, that can put strain on relationships to the point of, "I don't wanna be in community with this person anymore"? Right. Right. I will say, it took me a long time to name, my needs around money, not just in this relationship, but in, in others. And once I did that, I was able to actually receive more. I was able to show up differently because I wasn't sitting in that shame. I wasn't sitting in that failure. And I think, I would be remiss to not name and- Connect back to our race episode around just the inherent power dynamic within our friendship of me being a Black person and you being a white person. And one of the things that we've talked about is how, in a generation, your wealth has shifted, and how I'm still building. I'm still, figuring out the ways to lay the foundation, and how racial backgrounds and differences can also impact. Is there anything that's bubbled up for you- Hmm … from this episode, or cracked you open? I'm really glad that we're having this conversation. Yes. I'm glad that we're having this conversation together, and I'm glad we're having this conversation with our listeners, because we are in a time where, you know, pooling resources and sharing in mutual aid and community care is, in my opinion, just vital to survival. Correct. And if we can't have those conversations, how do we take care of each other? And so what's really bubbling up for me is, let's talk about it. Let's create the safety needed internally for each other, for ourselves and each other, to name what we need. What is going to be best, what feels uncomfortable- Mm-hmm what feels really good. For me, it's that while it might be a difficult conversation, there's so much richness on the other side of facing it, because being in avoidance can lead to confusion or misunderstanding. Whereas if you have the capacity to talk to your friends or beloveds about this topic, then it gives you the opportunity to name your priorities, and also offer to your friend a reminder of what all they bring and why continuing to be on this journey together, regardless of your financial standing, is so important. Mm-hmm. And I think for someone Who was so grateful even in my, in my early 20s when anyone would pick up the bill. Or, I remember one of my dad's friends went grocery shopping with me in college and, said I could get whatever I wanted. And it's those moments of relief, like compassionate relief, where the other person- Mm is really like, "I have this abundance and I want to share it." And, having been on both sides of that, it has felt really good recently to be in a place where I can be of service in that way. And it also makes me less afraid to be on the other side right now, where- Mm … I've recently been laid off and I- Yes sort of am in a deeper period of trust- Yep … that, in myself and in my community, that it will work out. Oof. I love that so much. And I just wanna say so loudly, that's the work that you've done. The intentional work to be in community in that way. That things will change and you still feel held. Mm. Beautiful. Will you pull a card for us? I will. She's proud of me, y'all. I am. I am. I haven't always been the calm, secure person you see before you today. I mean- … asking for help, asking for support- It's doing the most … is… hmm. Hmm. All right. We got the page of cups. Page is some of the youngest energy in the tarot. And, I think about this as an invitation to be less rigid around this topic. Page energy in itself is discovery, it's enthusiasm, I think about page energy as elementary school age where you're just like, everything is cool, everything is magic, everything is new. And you're not jaded from the harshness of life. Cups is connected to the element water, and it's our emotions. And so this is an invitation of how are you bringing levity into this conversation? How are you bringing a childlike eye to your relationships, your friendships around money when you can… Maybe it feels really uncomfortable, but what is the humor around it? How can you again bring some lightness to move y'all forward, to move the relationship closer, deeper, to allow folks to be more authentically themselves and to deepen that emotional safety. I think what's coming up for me is curiosity. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Being curious with the people you're in community with. What's your come from? What are you bringing to the table to this conversation, and how can we build something new together? Yes, tarot reader. All right. Um- I've been around you for too long. Stop it. Um, Michelle, our next episode will be our final for season one. I'm really proud of us. So proud of us. We're gonna see you next week. Take care. Bye now. If today's episode meant something to you, share it with a friend. Find us on Instagram @ The Third Thing Pod, and everything we're building lives at www. thethirdthingpod.com. Episode notes, our workbooks, all of it. And if you're ready to go deeper, real community, monthly events, early access, and to join the group chat, we're on Patreon. The link is in the show notes. If you're loving the show, a rating and review genuinely helps more people find us. It takes two minutes, and it means everything.